'If the ads are real.' WTF are you talking about? I took these ad's from REAL Popular Mechanics and Billboard Magazines that have been scanned and can be found by googling Bulova under Books.Your just being obtuse and arguing to argue like you've a mind to do in any debate.That you think that I would go to the lengths to fake ads or post what I even remotely thought were fake ads just shows your ass.I've contributed more real ads to this site than you've ever thought about possessing or sharing.Once again you get something in your head and can't see proof of something in front of you. Rather you chose to believe some crap you made up in your head with no proof.Excellent example of 'Fifth just being Fifth', which is actually a pretty popular saying around here. I understand what he's saying. It's the IF these are real. Like I just made that up.Obviously none of us were around to buy one of these back in the day so all we can rely upon is what these ads say.
The top ad says it comes with the Hex back with the military nomenclatureBut of course. That can't be right?! Because you say?If the military sold off the movements as surplus it wouldn't be that hard to sell off the extra cases and case backs by the bucket.I can go to a military surplus store and show you a crapload of military surplus stuff with serial numbers all over them. Dear Jerin,The first ad's description is completely wrong about what a WWII A-11 'Issue Watch' was, Wayne caught that one. But they had 'nomenclature'.The Second ad states the Watches are built to the 'exact specifications of U.S.
Government genuine War surplus' whatever that means, with no mention of caseback markings or 'nomenclature' of any kind.Again, U.S. Military Ordnance Department seriel numbers are what they are and always read between the lines in third party advertising.Yes, Fifth is being Fifth again.Now who's showing whos' ass? Well, If this didn't get heated.Boys calm down and be civil. Jerin's ads are genuine, no doubt about that and there's no doubting Jerin's contributions to this sight. He shares everything he finds! On the other hand I have seen many ads posted by other members in forums but yet they are not to be found in the database. Dating them seems to be the issue but if they seem to be good enough to present during a discussion, then they should be submitted to the database, maybe with a date tentative flag.As far as military surplus goes, I have bought NOS cases, movements, hands, crystals, gaskets, balance ass'y complete etc, everything can be found to build a watch and it can be built identicle to issue, less some caseback marks perhaps.
Unless your an expert on military Bulova, you'd never know the difference.They may have scraped watches, but not the parts!!With the way Bulova did things, a war, and the US Army all in the mix, well, who is really an expert to say just what is what.Opinions are based on information available and how each idividual interperates it. Fifth and Wayne are very well versed on printed data available, yet despite being versed on the same data they have disagreed on issues. Need I say more. WWII 'Issued' Watches were stamped accordingly to Ordnance department requirements.Military surplus parts are just that, surplus, unused, n.o.s. Therfore un- issued and any surplus Casebacks would not be stamped in accordance with Ordnance Department markings.What pisses Me off is the attempt to belittle the importance of Military issued Watches to horological History and the sacrifices the Men and Women who wore them made to protect Our liberties.Great ads, but 100% bullshit IMO. I wonder what the saps who purchased them actually received, Sea Monkeys? Certainly not one of these:Fifth.
Shawn,Many were not destroyed, obviously.The vintage ad #1 indicates that the Watches are constructed from used parts or 'reconditioned' - The descriptive text is incorrect for a WWII Military issue Bulova A-11.After reading 10 times over ad #2 may have merit.I found these this morning, the movement inside appears to be a 16 Jewel 10 AKCSH dated with a Triangle or a Square.This Watch has Hands of a Bulova Military 'ORD DEPT', or does it (?), a Case which appears to be Stainless Steel and a non - decagonal (thanks Wayne) Caseback with Military 'nomenclature' I'm unfamiliar with. Is it a Bulova Type A-11? According to War Department manual AN 05-35A-9 published Jan. 1945, it is not.The Walthams You show were packed in May 1945, Germany surrendered May 8, 1945.Unissued Watches, but ready for and not Watches built from Military surplus parts. I don't have a 'dog in this fight' but just for 'Sh'.ts & Giggles' I asked a friend of mine to look at this discussion and let me know what his thinking is.His background: Lt.
USAF Navigator, stationed in Japan, Korea, Vietnam, Europe and a few other places he couldn't remember;-) Age: 70 years young and just retired from his second career at Northrup Grumman San Diego designing the 'Global Hawk'. (the kind of stuff that he couldn't talk about, cause if he did, he'd have to kill you!:-0) I've know this man for thirty plus years, and trust what he says!!!His comment about the ads Jerin found (esp. The first ad) and I quote ' Yep, these look just like the watches we could buy every day of the week at the BX'. ' personally, I didn't like 'em, weren't all that accurate, especially for flight navigation. You know Bob, I think I've still got one upstairs in one my drawers, I'll see if I can find it:-0'. I hate to tell war stories but there is a time & place. I have same background as your Nav friend Bob, SMSGT USAF Retired Flight Engineer 24 years - Aircraft flown C-97G 3350 hours, C-141A 1900 hours & C-5A over 2100 hours, flying cargo from point A to point B & retired Boeing Technical Writer/Instructional Systems Designer.
I probably flew with this guy or passed him in the night. The funny thing about the Type A-11 & Type A-17 watches was the nomenclature, 'Watch, Navigation.' The Navigators I flew with were issued the Hamilton Model 23 Navigation Stop Watch &/or Hamilton Model 3992 Master Navigation watch. The model 23 has a stop watch function & is a really neat timepiece to handle. I wasn't issued these, but I bought one of each for my collection. I was issued an A-17, but kept it in my shaving kit as a backup for my trusty Seiko Navigation Timer GMT.Bob, ask your Nav friend what watch he was issued and what watch he actually used for navigation.
This is not a put-down of the A-11 or A-17 by any means, but an effort to tell it like it really was.Today's aircraft use Flight Mangement Systems that replaced the Navigator & perform all the navigation functions required for safe flight.Shown for historical purposes- Hamilton Model 23 Navigational Stop Watch & Hamilton Master Navigation Watch. I'll check with him Wayne and pm you when I find out, I for one would love to hear the war stories!! But, your right there is a time and place, preferably over a few beers:-p. I know for a fact that neither of the watches posted by Jerin were used by Pete, and that's just based on his comments when he looked at the ad, and laughed.I'm pretty sure he probably used a watch similar to the one you used just due to the 'accuracy' factor. You sure don't want to rely on anything that's not accurate while navigating, you might just end up in China or Russia, and that just wouldn't be good.
'What pisses Me off is the attempt to belittle the importance of Military issued Watches to horological History and the sacrifices the Men and Women who wore them made to protect Our liberties.' Nobody is belittling the U.S. Military Man's service by debating weather a watch is NOS or used in WWII.My grandfather was in the U.S. Army in WWII and fought in Italy, North Africa, and then one of the first into the death camps in Germany.My father and 3 of my uncles were in Vietnam in the U.S. Army.I was in the U.S. Joined during the tail end of the 1st Iraq war but didn't end up going. I have many close friends who did go to the second one, at least one didn't make it home.That your bringing up servicemen's honor over a piece of equipment is silly.so how bout them Detroit Lions?
3-0Can we argue about something else for a while? Instead of vintage NON Bulova ads? I think they're neat and prove Jerins point. I think it's cool that he can find this stuff, but I also think he knows it proves ONLY that watches were sold surplus, just like JEEPS and maybe bazookas. They might have been actual surplus, they might have been put together from leftover lasagna, who knows?
They might have come home on the wrists of our fathers, uncles and grandfathers!FIVE stars to all servicemen from ALL countries. TEN stars and 21 guns to those gave it all. Freedom ain't free, anywhere.
My point is this, regardless of war department documentation currently in hand, there may be documention not yet found that may say it is. Therefore we must consider the possibilites exist and give up the notion that one members opinion is absolute and correct.We are here to discover Bulova history not discount new finds as irrelevant or of little consequence but to consider possibilites.Lastly the 1st ad states ' Used - Reconditioned like New for Re-Issue'. There is no mention they were constructed from used parts. The second ad states they are 'Surplus', which could be just as the Walthams for sale now. There's nothing there that says they weren't military issue.That's something Fifth has got into his head and just won't let go of. Making accusations of the ads being false and posting ads of x-ray glasses, Sea Monkeys and the like is just so childish and Personally, I'm sick of seeing this kind of garbage be posted here.Most importantly Fifth, don't ever acuse anyone here of belittling the Men and Women in the Armed Forces.
My Brother pulled a 6 month tour in Afganistan for the USAF and for those 6 months the rest of the Family went through the hell of worrying,hoping, praying that he'd get out safe and sound. Just don't ever make such a stupid remark like that again.
Fifth,This paragraph 3 from the TM 9-1575 dated April 1945 indeed shows the markings that were supposed to appear on the casebacks of WWII watches. However, take a look at just your WWII ORD watches that should be maked OF & Type A-11 watches that should be marked OFA that you have logged into the database.
According to this document a bunch of your WWII watches would be considered non-authentic. What is supposed to be complied with & what actually gets complied with are two different things, especially in time of war. Strict compliance with this document leaves you with a bunch of Frankenbullys.Have a Great mybulova day! (f) OF - for 15 to 17 Jewel wrist watches (waterproof case)(g) OFA - for 15 - 16 jewel wrist watch, waterproof case, Air Corps (.Navigation, Type A-11, substitute standard). 'substitute standard' to Me means the standard Ordnance department case type ( waterproof, non waterproof ) markings are substituted (replaced) on the Type A-11's.The correct Navigation Type A-11 (hack) Bulova specs and caseback markings can be found in AN 05-35A-9.' FRANKENBULLY's if You must Wayne, I say Bulova WWII Military timepieces.and please don't refer to the A-17A nor the 3818A as those Watches are from a completely different era.actually, I thought the iPod ad was genius. Fifth, give it up already, You weren't there, you are not an expert and your mind is closed to all possibilities.
Quite frankly, get back on your meds because your dilusional comments and insistance that what you have is gospel is just nonsence. You Sir have accused members of changing bridge plates, forging ads, and accused us of belittling our military personal. GET A FR.&^KEN GRIP ON YOUR RAMBLEING. You cannot always be right with your ' OPINIONS' as that is what they are, your opinion period! So why don't you just STFU and let this one go when everyone else is kicking your ass for being so stubborn. Give it up Dude, you have pissed off an aweful lot of people with your comments on this forum. I for one have lost any respect I might have had for you.
Time to stand down,Regards Shawn.
Determine the Age of your Vintage Pocket Watch How to Use our Vintage Watch Serial Number & Date Lookup Tables Instructions for using our serial number look-up tablesThis page contains INSTRUCTIONS for using the serial number look-up tables that are found on many of our watch company history pages. The example below uses information from the American Waltham Watch Company, but that is just an example. You should consult the serial number table for the specific brand of watch movement you are trying to date by selecting a company from the menu on the left.Not all vintage watches can be dated using the serial number. Some American watch brands did not use a consistent series of serial numbers, but most of the big manufacturers did.
Most vintage Swiss pocket watches did NOT have serial numbers and can't be dated by this method. Can't find YOUR exact serial number in our lookup tables?Many watch companies made hundreds of thousands of watches, and some companies made millions of watches!
It would be impractical to list the individual serial numbers of EVERY watch made. That would make some really long pages! Our serial number tables list RANGES of serial numbers. So to determine when your watch was manufactured, you will need to find where your serial number fits within the range of numbers.
Serial number look-up example:Let's say you have a Waltham watch with serial number 21,607,210 as shown in the photo below. Note that we're using the serial number from the watch movement, not from the watch case. Looking at the table of Waltham serial numbers (see example below), you can see that number 20,900,000 was made in 1917 and 21,800,000 was made in 1918 (marked in red in the table below).
Since your serial number falls between those two numbers, you know that your watch was made in 1917 or 1918. Not sure which serial number to use?You must use the serial number from the MOVEMENT of the watch. The working part with the wheels and gears. Not the serial number from the watch case. Cases and watches were often made by different companies and each usually has its own serial number. You usually have to take the back off the watch case to see the movement serial number which may appear anywhere on the watch movement.Use the movement serial number.
Do NOT use the case serial number!This is an example only. Your movement serial number may not be in exactly the same location as the one in the photo, but you are looking for the serial number that is on the watch mechanism itself. Not the serial number on the external case.
EXAMPLE SERIAL NUMBER LOOK-UP: American Waltham Watch Company Approximate Serial Numbers and Production Dates YearS/N0,000188888888888888771,01,11,31,51,61,82,02,32,63,03,400,000YearS/N18883,84,24,75,25,86,36,77,17,48,18,49,09,510,211,112,113,514,314,715,516,417,617,918,118,218,919,520,020,520,921,822,523,423,924,124,300,000YearS/N192424,524,825,226,126,426,927,127,327,527,728,128,629,129,429,730,030,230,731,031,431,732,132,332,733,133,533,533,633,733,834,134,434,735,000,000.